1635 Prestige

[Night Hunter]

So just to be clear how this will effect my Mercs Band-
If the Voyager 1635 uses her Prestige to have a Westerner Grenadier and Dopplesoldier (total 36 points) I lose the bonuses for an "unmixed faction" and couldn't count the command of the Prestige imported units- though with this example it has no effect.

If I add another Dopplesoldier, now I have used Prestige to bring in 54 points, I subtract 3- one for each unit- from my Permanent Command-

Ouch!  Good thing I can choose Deserters now, but the ability to use Prestige to bring decent troopers into a Mercenary Band is definitely not as good as it was- it might be just me, but I was hoping Mercenaries or Prestige were immune to this new ruling and it was set up to limit Mercs in other Factions- I know the Mercenaries have good independents, but the Troopers are not so hot in my opinion-

I guess my Westerner style Mercenary Band has lost a lot of its edge if this is right.  Would be nice to see an official 1635 Rulebook just to be sure!

[Franck]

That's right.
Basically, you can't play with more than 50pts from non mercenaries. Well you can, but you'll probably loose big time.

It's not that bad though, even if it's hard to do a 200pts full mercs company, you can often find 150pts with good minis.

[Rogue]

I have over 700pts of miniatures split over 3 factions. From one day to the next I cannot make a single legal list (without spending at least £20 - £13 if I accept playing an officer I don't really want to play with and a rather weak company)... that's how you reward early adopters of the game. Way to go Asmodee!

[Night Hunter]

I am not sure how Asmodee looks at 'stand in' models, but I guess I could use my Dopplesoldiers as Deserters now- I hate having repeat figures in a skirmish army game of this scale-
Grenadiers don't look like much of anything else, so they would have to come as themselves...

[Dogmeat]

I have over 700pts of miniatures split over 3 factions. From one day to the next I cannot make a single legal list (without spending at least £20 - £13 if I accept playing an officer I don't really want to play with and a rather weak company)... that's how you reward early adopters of the game. Way to go Asmodee!

Early adopter here too.  Can`t really see how this announcement has penalised anybody that much, unless they were going a bit overkill on mercs.

Mercs weren`t being used to add a little bit of flavour to groups.  Mercs were being used as a way to cherry pick the best units from different factions.  The mercenary armies rapidly become the opposite.  Rather than the Mercs working for the other factions, it seemed to be the other factions working for the Mercs.

I would say the Mercs are now at a stage where they can stand as their own faction.  The changes to prestige means you can still work the odd model from a different faction into your force.  It just stops people overloading with the best.

It should be easy enough finding a Westerner player to trade the grenadiers or doppelsoldners to.  Then you can concentrate on your Mercs or Sarrasins.

[Night Hunter]

Or just build more Westerners!
Merc army was short on troops as I didn't like the theme of the damned, the deserters definitely help, but I still think we are independent heavy in comparison.
I like having the Dopplesoldiers since they are Huguenot- fitting with Moeller and look like a match for the Voyager-
If Templars do come to the Mercs- they would also fit very well.

[Dogmeat]

Or just build more Westerners!
Merc army was short on troops as I didn't like the theme of the damned, the deserters definitely help, but I still think we are independent heavy in comparison.
I like having the Dopplesoldiers since they are Huguenot- fitting with Moeller and look like a match for the Voyager-
If Templars do come to the Mercs- they would also fit very well.

Its still good to take the Doppels.  They "suit" the army look.  Just means you can`t take the grenadiers at the same time. 

[Rogue]

... early adopter as in 2007 adopter? Mark, let's try not to fight over this here as I'm sure what's in my pants doesn't interest people that much ;-)

the point here is that some people like me, and as I can see Night Hunter, have build forces based on composition rules that were totally official and that the changes brought, regardless of adequacy, make a large portion of our investment unusable.

yes my companies relied heavily on prestige, is that wrong? Should I be penalised for choosing a particular way to spend my money on Helldorado in the first 18 months of existence of the game? should I be forced to sell some of my figures at a loss and acquire new ones that frankly don't appeal to me?

Of course not. In fact Geoff originally stated that one thing they were very keen to avoid in revising profiles for 1635 was not to alter the limitation of some figures to preserve players investment i.e not limit Lancers to 2 or similar. Castrating 'Prestige' in the manner that 1635 mixity rule does is in fact far worst since they affect a large number of figures for some mercs players.

I can't remember what you play but would you be happy if a game mechanic changed to the extend of making a particular feat your company is based on no longer be allowed and that you'd have to consider selling on a large part of your figures to acquire better suited ones?

[Dogmeat]

... early adopter as in 2007 adopter? Mark, let's try not to fight over this here as I'm sure what's in my pants doesn't interest people that much ;-)

Yes.  That long. 

Although the contents of your pants holds no surprises.  *wink wink*

the point here is that some people like me

Aww, don`t put yourself down Rogue.  We all *love* you.

, and as I can see Night Hunter, have build forces based on composition rules that were totally official and that the changes brought, regardless of adequacy, make a large portion of our investment unusable.

yes my companies relied heavily on prestige, is that wrong? Should I be penalised for choosing a particular way to spend my money on Helldorado in the first 18 months of existence of the game? should I be forced to sell some of my figures at a loss and acquire new ones that frankly don't appeal to me?

You`re yet to show us how you`ve been penalised.  Give us a list of the models you`ve got and I`m sure the nice people on here will help you work out a legal list to play with. 

I find it hard to see how any purchase has become unusable due to this change.

Of course not. In fact Geoff originally stated that one thing they were very keen to avoid in revising profiles for 1635 was not to alter the limitation of some figures to preserve players investment i.e not limit Lancers to 2 or similar. Castrating 'Prestige' in the manner that 1635 mixity rule does is in fact far worst since they affect a large number of figures for some mercs players.

They havn`t limited it though.  You just have to pay CMD for the benefit of leading such a diverse force.  You can still use the same list as before.  The points cost hasn`t changed at all (I think).  I suspect you`re just a bit annoyed that your game winning army of doom has had its power toned down a bit.

I can't remember what you play but would you be happy if a game mechanic changed to the extend of making a particular feat your company is based on no longer be allowed and that you'd have to consider selling on a large part of your figures to acquire better suited ones?

I play Mercenaries as it happens.  Stayed away from Prestige though.  Seemed a bit too cheesy.

I`d just state again that the list is allowed.  It`s just been toned down a bit.  No buying or selling required.

[Rogue]

I'd be happy and would agree with you if the cost in CMD for taking non faction fighters above 50 pts only concerned themselves. I'd then be able to lose 1 CMD and lose only 1 out of 4 of my key troopers. It'd still be a high price but I'd go along with that.

And since you asked so nicely, I'll take the bait and share the list in question... which is very far from a 'doom' list, it just fares reliably on most scenarios which is what I liked about it:

Traveler
Gotz
Alazais (yes you read right, she was weak in 1634 but I played her, not chasing PM as you can see)
3x Dopple
1x grenadier
1x Damned R&F

so that's a troop heavy company, not particularly specialized and with moderate hit power.

... as stated by someone in this topic losing 3CMD out of 4 is not a viable option. Sure I have some independents with CMD standing next to her but losing half your commandment to get a 3rd non faction guy is ridiculous.

My saracen oriented list is not even worth mentioning as it's not even funny how ripped apart it is at this stage and I would have no other choice but to acquire a starter to make it possible to field them.

Do I have figs to fill the gap with independents? the answer is no. Could I complete the list with moderate extra dosh? yes. Would I enjoy playing it? probably but so do I enjoy playing other games that don't require me to dumb half of my figs just to keep playing.

... maybe one day the conceptors will have made up their mind as to what they want. I'll come back then and perhaps I'll feel that it was my loss. I seriously doubt it though.

[Dogmeat]

And since you asked so nicely, I'll take the bait and share the list in question... which is very far from a 'doom' list, it just fares reliably on most scenarios which is what I liked about it:

Traveler
Gotz
Alazais (yes you read right, she was weak in 1634 but I played her, not chasing PM as you can see)
3x Dopple
1x grenadier
1x Damned R&F

so that's a troop heavy company, not particularly specialized and with moderate hit power.

Use the Traveller as a proxy for Baptiste or Francisco.  You then have a legal Westerner force.  You`ll lose two command on Gotz and Alazais being Mercs, but you`ll gain one back from Francisco having a higher CMD stat.

More than half of your army are Westerners (since the Damned have Cannon Fodder).  Why not just play Westerners ? 

Do I have figs to fill the gap with independents? the answer is no. Could I complete the list with moderate extra dosh? yes. Would I enjoy playing it? probably but so do I enjoy playing other games that don't require me to dumb half of my figs just to keep playing.

Seriously?  I`d be interested to know what the other 500 points of figures you have are.  Must be something in there you can use.

... maybe one day the conceptors will have made up their mind as to what they want. I'll come back then and perhaps I'll feel that it was my loss. I seriously doubt it though.

Do you really expect a game to be perfect from the get go ?  Most games change and get revised.  Believe it or not but I think a fair few people *like* this limitation.

[Night Hunter]

I guess it would be nice if the negatives ignored troops- I mean with the Voyager they are hated anyway- isn't that enough!

Might have to see how I can make a Westerner list to add to my Mercs- George would fit nicely, and maybe my Deserters could be Spadassins

[Rogue]

proxying? err OK. I think I could have figured that one ;-)

as for the other 500pts these are some remnants of my Lost and a ton of Sarasins. But not a single legal force in there... when I say I cannot make a legal list without buying (or proxying) some figures, that is exactly right, believe me I've turned the puzzle upside down for weeks now.

it's interesting to note that dropping 1 AP on the cost of either Dopple or Granadier would have made the pill a lot more easy to swallow. Dopple are not as tough as they were before (due to boosting of most shooters) and Grenadier have been nerfed so I don't think that 1 AP shaved would have 'unbalanced' the game by any stretch but would have made the impact on a typical Don or Traveler's list just right and not punishing as it is now.

And make no mistake I am not an isolated case, many people on the French forum are unhappy about these changes. most, like me, think that they definitely help the game but there were also some very good alternatives or middle ground that would have stayed true to this vow to minimize the loss of investment at the player's end.

[Dogmeat]

as for the other 500pts these are some remnants of my Lost and a ton of Sarasins. But not a single legal force in there... when I say I cannot make a legal list without buying (or proxying) some figures, that is exactly right, believe me I've turned the puzzle upside down for weeks now.

Swapsies ?  Theres a few Lost and Sarassin models I`m after.  I`m sure I can swap some for them.

it's interesting to note that dropping 1 AP on the cost of either Dopple or Granadier would have made the pill a lot more easy to swallow. Dopple are not as tough as they were before (due to boosting of most shooters) and Grenadier have been nerfed so I don't think that 1 AP shaved would have 'unbalanced' the game by any stretch but would have made the impact on a typical Don or Traveler's list just right and not punishing as it is now.

Yeah, it made me giggle slightly when I noticed that.

And make no mistake I am not an isolated case, many people on the French forum are unhappy about these changes. most, like me, think that they definitely help the game but there were also some very good alternatives or middle ground that would have stayed true to this vow to minimize the loss of investment at the player's end.

True, and I`ll admit it is a stiff penalty.

[Franck]

And make no mistake I am not an isolated case, many people on the French forum are unhappy about these changes.

Nice troll Rogue  .
I knew I already read that kind of complaint somewhere in the french forum.
And guess what? The only player whining about this exact problem was... Rogue again! 

There may be a few players embarassed by that new rule, and some not happy about it. But players being unable to build a company? That's for sure an isolated case.

From what you say, you have some officers, and 2 boxes of reinforcement, gotz+alazais and ranked. Well no wonder it's hard to build an army of mercs with 2 boxes.


This rule is pretty good, because:
- it avoid lethal combo with always the same minis (ashishins, grenadiers, sister eloise, lancer, golem...)
- it will allow us mercs to get really good minis without them being nerfed 2 weeks after because "everyone uses them cause he's too good"
- you see more variety in tournaments

It's bad cause Rossinante looks pretty crappy right now, and it's harder to build a coherent merc force, but that's no big deal for anyone who have more than 2 boxes which is imho at least 95% of the mercs players...


So if you wanna leave helldorado for that reason, or if you think that asmodee is only there to get more of your money (another joke when you look at some other games?)... well I think we won't miss you so much...
There are plenty of players that are enjoying the new rules, I'm sure we will find more players than with a game where you have to say "well ok, that guy was playing a ubercombo company with Rossinante, but well... somedays there are also players playing Vargas, and you can enjoy the game with those ones!"

Franck,