What value for an Hell Dorado company: 200 or 250 points

[Darth-Swen]

As noted on his previous post (translated by Mathieu here http://arch01.forum.helldorado.fr/index.php?topic=2634.msg31307#new ) Geof explained he was considering to increase the army value to 250 pts.

A debate about this new format quickly started in the French section of the forum. Now understanding many players were quite reluctant with this new format Geof  posted a comment to explain his new position:

Following your debate, and having a chat about it with my beta-testers, Croc and I changed our mind regarding this new 250pts format...
Originally the idea was more to find a way to give a better chance to the "80pts and more" officers to be included into the army list than simply increase the format of the army.

But now I am thinking more that the problem wasn't an inadequacy between the officers and army values but more an inadequacy between the officers themselves. Understanding that I am currently more thinking about a global revaluation of the officer's value rather than a modification of the army's format. That's my point of view today but it may change again...

[Dogmeat]

I like the 250pt idea.  Gives a bit more breathing room.  In a 250pt game I would probably take Georg more than I`d take Valombre as I`ve the room to properly support him with other models.

I like how there are three "levels" of leader.  I`d hate to see them all become closer pointed and powered.

[Darth-Swen]

To increase the army's format won't change the fact that players have more interrest to spend 94pts to enrole Don Quichotte, Goetz and three damned rank and files rather than Gilles de Rais alone...

It is a example but it reflects perfectly one truth: It is far better to save army points to buy more troops rather than just one "powerful" unit.

In this game, number is more important than quality 

Furthermore some "low cost" officers (like Don) are sometimes as poweful as the expensive one...

[Dogmeat]

In this game, number is more important than quality 

Furthermore some "low cost" officers (like Don) are sometimes as poweful as the expensive one...

I`d have to disagree with your first point.  I`ve found a few independants to be more than a match for a greater number of troopers.  Normally, anyway.  There are always exceptions.

I`d say Dom is the exception rather than the rule.  Would be good to see him nerfed slightly.  The fact that he seems a better leader for a Westerners force (which admittedly becomes a Merc force, but you get my point) than the actual Westerner leaders does worry me.  I`d like to see Prestige used a lot less in the Mercs.

[Darth-Swen]

In this game, number is more important than quality 
Furthermore some "low cost" officers (like Don) are sometimes as poweful as the expensive one...

I`d have to disagree with your first point.  I`ve found a few independants to be more than a match for a greater number of troopers.  Normally, anyway.  There are always exceptions.

Exceptions come from the scenario. Most of them are based "squares' domination" and so on numbers...

unfortunately more and more players play the extermination of the opposite army rather than the scenario. Then I have to agree, the quality is more important as it keeps you alive 

I`d say Dom is the exception rather than the rule.  Would be good to see him nerfed slightly.  The fact that he seems a better leader for a Westerners force (which admittedly becomes a Merc force, but you get my point) than the actual Westerner leaders does worry me.  I`d like to see Prestige used a lot less in the Mercs.

Don is not THE exception. You have to admit that the expensive officers are generally never played, even if "potentialy" better on the paper.

About the prestige it is another point Geof is working on. Will keep you in touch in another post...

[Dogmeat]

I`d say Dom is the exception rather than the rule.  Would be good to see him nerfed slightly.  The fact that he seems a better leader for a Westerners force (which admittedly becomes a Merc force, but you get my point) than the actual Westerner leaders does worry me.  I`d like to see Prestige used a lot less in the Mercs.

Don is not THE exception. You have to admit that the expensive officers are generally never played, even if "potentialy" better on the paper.

About the prestige it is another point Geof is working on. Will keep you in touch in another post...

What I meant with that is that there is a noticable rise in power up the leaders.  Not necessarily better, but more powerful.  Dom seems to be the exception in that he`s cheap *and* quite powerful.

Would be interesting to see a greater range of leaders though.  Seems like every army I face is Demons and they`re all led by Asaliah.

[Darth-Swen]

What I meant with that is that there is a noticable rise in power up the leaders.  Not necessarily better, but more powerful.  Dom seems to be the exception in that he`s cheap *and* quite powerful.

Would be interesting to see a greater range of leaders though.  Seems like every army I face is Demons and they`re all led by Asaliah.

This is where the current system doesn't work. More powerful doesn't mean better !

Why players should pay a full price when they can hire a correct officer and more independants/troopers ?

My opinion is Geof miscalculated the impact of the orders/capacities when he determined the value of the officers. Something only experience can give you as there is no mathematical rules for that.

[Bob]

unfortunately more and more players play the extermination of the opposite army rather than the scenario.

Don't blame the players for that. It's not their fault if it works, but the scenarios'.

[Darth-Swen]

unfortunately more and more players play the extermination of the opposite army rather than the scenario.

Don't blame the players for that. It's not their fault if it works, but the scenarios'.

Fair point...

But to increase the army's value to 250 points will not solve the problem, it will just allow players to have more killers into their team.

[Night Hunter]

In my experience raising the point level won't raise the use of point expensive models in a game unless you agree that you must have a Captain that is over 65 points or some other rule- because in most scenarios if you raise to 250, the guy who takes that extra 50 points in troops will still have an advantage over the big spender on one model- at least in most cases-

Gilles it should be noted gets to bring some models in reserve- I am planning two tribal squamates as it fits the 24 quite nicely- but that still makes him a 70 point captain...

[Bork]

whether you use the extra 50pts on troops or an expensive charecter it doesnt give an advantage at all its all the same points value that your playing to, i may use tsilla whos pretty weak in a 200pts game against georg or bran who are anything but weak but its still fair and theres no advantage because our armies are the same points. one side may have more figures than the other but thats a choice they make when they build their armies. its no differant now.

all the 50pts extra will do is make it so if you choose to use a higher end officier you arnt neutering the rest of your army.

the 80pts+ officiers are great and should be used but i dont feel comfortable including them when i cant fit half of what i want into the remaining points to really they may aswell not exist and i feel more or less compelled to use the likes of asaliah or baptiste.

[Silveri]

Another marked problem is the current amount of different troops available. Dhams is used in almost every Saracen list (although I'm curious about the impact of the efreet), I've yet to see a demon based army that doesn't include the Grand damned of Wrath, westerner armies all tend to include grenadiers, mercs are more or less always led by Don... (I can't say much about the Lost, since I have only played a single game against them)

There doesn't seem yet to be a markedly radical differences of general strategy within the armies themselves - something that I loved back in C (especially as a Cadwë player) - that would favour the usage of radically different troops (or same troops in a different way).

Then again, adding more variance tends to unbalance a game very quickly (as in C) and players would start to complain even more.

Perhaps a new set of cards sold separately (at a reasonable price) at the release of each edition/supplement to keep the game balanced - possibly with downloadable versions as an alternative approach?

[Nutzoide]

Another marked problem is the current amount of different troops available.

Well, Hell Dorado is still a fairly young game. More options will come with time, I am sure, but even so people are still going to use what works, especially if they are very competetive players.

Personally my Demons will have no wraths of either type, because I want to try and make a less gory war band! I want to go more for a subtle side of David Cronenburg, instead of raw Clive Barker! As for Mercs, if I do choose them over the Bhuddists as my second army down the line, it will have to be Gilles de Rais at the head. Even though he's pricy and I don't know what the Scout/Master of Terrain abiity does, he just looks so awesome!

[Doctor-Warlock]

We started playing to 250 pts as soon as this started to be discussed, and (to be frank) we found 200 pts a little too limiting.

[Darth-Swen]

As far as I know the army format will stay at its current value: 200 pts