is there a strongest and weakest faction? or is this more balanced in this game?
we are going to buy demons/lost, but my missus hates the look of some of the, as in creepy! so are the more down to earth westerners/sarasins as competative? as in most games the demons /baddys are allways better?
all the factions have strong and weak points to them but from my experience its demons and westerners who tend to domininate with demons being slightly ahead, IMO lost are at the moment are the weakest of the factions, despite being far better in combat than most i hardly ever see them win and ive never lost to them, doesnt mean to say there bad they just need to be played correctly. play with what models you like and develop your own tactics and army lists. helldorado is a balanced game and you have to put more thought into things than you'd think to be successful with the best of army lists.
i suggest playing scenarios too, they really do even the odds and make things far more interesting to play.
I would`ve put Westerners at the bottom personally. Too low a CMD.
I think most of us agree that Demons are probably the easiest to make a good force out of. Not to say they can`t be beaten or anything, but most things support each other well.
The other factions really depend more on support so need a bit of practice to use.
can i ask, are the mercs an army as such or independent models to join your force?
both, you can use entirely mercenary army or have them join other factions with some limitations.
i wouldnt say westerners are bottom, lost suffer from the same lack of CMD points but i always struggle most against westerners, its the armour mostly. the lost ive more or less thrashed every game ive had against them and saracens bar lancers seem to be quite weak, ive never played a full merc list so cant comment on them.
the game is so brutal and fast paced its so easy for one side or t'other to come out on top. i find once a side has taken 2-3 casualties more than the enemy its very difficult to recover the game. combat is simultaneous so everything has an equal chance and surprisingly since demons lack any armour that they come out on top.
I play Westerners and find Demons the hardest to beat.
On the other hand demoed at gamesfest today using the Westerners and Lost starter sets and it was 2 games each. My son then made it 3-2 to the Loast when we played a game before packing up.
As with many games it's the scenarios that change the nature of the game and can make a 'weak' faction stronger, or vice versa.
Citation de: nightwatch le Octobre 04, 2008, 21:47:16 PM
can i ask, are the mercs an army as such or independent models to join your force?
Both.
As Borks already said that though, I just thought I`d add a little. Mercs seem to be the faction that I have most success with. They are quite a diverse rag tag bunch with lots of little special rules. Depending on what Officer you take, you can also take some models from other factions (Westerners and Saracens anyway).
Plus, the Golem is
rock hard.
*ba dum tish*
mmm, right thanks, i love the look of the lost and the demons, so if i went for lost which are possibly one of the weakest factions, could they be made much better in their week areas by adding mercs up to a good fighting level to take on the demons?
it seems like demons are the ones to beat, are they unbeatable? if not who beats them most?
while i would go for demons first i don't want to have a strong force while my wife plays something else that's always beaten, hence my thinking for going for the lost with a merc contingent, but what other faction?
adding mercs surely could boost them up, theres some pretty great merc models out there. lost arnt so bad its just i dont have trouble beating them. for me its the lack of CMD points that punish armies. i normally clock 9 CMD points with my demons and i generally get twice as many as my opponant, it makes a huge differance to the game.
demons are a double edged sword, whilst hitting hard and having lots of CMD points and good orders they lack armour and have to rely on healing to keep them going, without asaliah or samiel on the table they go die so easily. lost suffer mainly because of their individual high cost and therefore low numbers and the fact that combat is simultaneous, it doesnt make them useless but you need to play them carefully.
demons certainly are the best consistant game winners, the rest are evenly matched more or less but at the end of the day its the better play who wins and especially so if you use the scenarios. its even stevens then as the object isnt a straight up scrap and any force can take the win.
demons are not unbeatable by any means, i loose maybe 1 in 4 games with them on average and when i loose i tend to loose pretty badly.
From the experience in our Hell Dorado Group of players at first the demon players were strongest, however once we played scenarios and everyone simply learned how to use his troops more efficiently it evened out pretty much. If I'm not mistaken in the near future along with the first expansion stat changes are about to come, so they might 'balance' a thing or two that way (if there should be any need at all).
As it is, the game seems fairly balanced, it is a hell lot of fun to play and no one in our group feels he has done the 'wrong' choice in having picked a potentially weaker faction. We chose the faction(s) we liked best from design and are very happy with that.
thanks for all the help guys, ive gone and ordered a lost for me, and the westerners for the missus,(she just couldn't handle the look of the demons) i wanted the demons but feel to get used to the game lost/westerners would be a more balanced bet.
i also ordered isha, and the golem, i want estruscilla stix as i think he/she looks cool on paper but cant find it, is it with the saurav-geet?
can the marshal of hell (giles) only command a merc army, think im right in that as using the online army builder to check what units go with each faction.
anyways now you can all wait for just played and silly question time to follow ;D
any players in east devon?
Citation de: nightwatch le Octobre 06, 2008, 11:13:01 AM
can the marshal of hell (giles) only command a merc army, think im right in that as using the online army builder to check what units go with each faction.
anyways
Correct. Some Merc officers have an ability called Prestige that lets them hire troops from other armies. Gilles doesn`t have this though and can only hire troops that are already Mercs.
Citation de: nightwatch le Octobre 06, 2008, 11:13:01 AM
now you can all wait for just played and silly question time to follow ;D
Look forward to it. New players are the lifeblood of the game and all that. ;D
Citation de: nightwatch le Octobre 06, 2008, 11:13:01 AM
any players in east devon?
Try registering/looking here;
http://nearbygamers.com/ (http://nearbygamers.com/)
I'm a bit too far away by the way! But I will be at Warfare in Reading running HD demos if you can make it that far.
Zaebas did you hear about this ?
This is a set of scenario to play in organized game (like tournament) during a limited period.
Part one and two are over and their compiled results are known.
You may use it to determine strong and weak faction, but results comes also from players and scenarios.
For example daemons have no good results but to my mind it is cause by the fact they are the more difficult to master.
Moerover some faction are good against somes and bad against others.
For example Dameons are good against saracens which is maybe the strongest faction.
So in first part, ranking was (from winners to losers) :
- Losts
- Saracens
- Deamons
- Westerners
Mercs were too few to count
In part two,
- Saracens
- Mercs
- Losts
- Westerners & Daemons
To conclude, all factions are quite balanced, i only advise against Westerners (for the moment) since to be competitive you have only one possible strategy (grenadiers + doppelsodner) and this is not fun.
i can attest to that particular strategy not being fun im on the recieving end of it more or less every time i play
Citation de: Bork le Octobre 09, 2008, 11:31:30 AM
i can attest to that particular strategy not being fun im on the recieving end of it more or less every time i play
I`ve switched over to Mercs now, so you shouldn`t be facing quite so many grenadiers. ;D
quite so many? you mean 3 instead of 4. you are kind ::) ;)
Citation de: Bork le Octobre 09, 2008, 16:37:43 PM
quite so many? you mean 3 instead of 4. you are kind ::) ;)
Nah, closer to none. Gilles is lacking in the good ol` Prestige. Suppose I could find out my Voyageuse and give her a whirl. ;)
Citation de: Dogmeat le Octobre 09, 2008, 16:40:31 PM
Citation de: Bork le Octobre 09, 2008, 16:37:43 PM
quite so many? you mean 3 instead of 4. you are kind ::) ;)
Nah, closer to none. Gilles is lacking in the good ol` Prestige. Suppose I could find out my Voyageuse and give her a whirl. ;)
In my opinion to be allowed to use the best units of the different factions is everything but good for the balance of the game...
No offense but to discover some players used Rossinate, 2 grenaders and 2 hashishins make me sick. I hate this Prestige ability :-[
Citation de: Darth-Swen le Octobre 09, 2008, 16:59:39 PM
Citation de: Dogmeat le Octobre 09, 2008, 16:40:31 PM
Citation de: Bork le Octobre 09, 2008, 16:37:43 PM
quite so many? you mean 3 instead of 4. you are kind ::) ;)
Nah, closer to none. Gilles is lacking in the good ol` Prestige. Suppose I could find out my Voyageuse and give her a whirl. ;)
In my opinion to be allowed to use the best units of the different factions is everything but good for the balance of the game...
No offense but to discover some players used Rossinate, 2 grenaders and 2 hashishins make me sick. I hate this Prestige ability :-[
Two hashashins (says Sean Connery) you say ? Interesting .... ::)
Citation de: Dogmeat le Octobre 09, 2008, 17:02:30 PM
Citation de: Darth-Swen le Octobre 09, 2008, 16:59:39 PM
Citation de: Dogmeat le Octobre 09, 2008, 16:40:31 PM
Citation de: Bork le Octobre 09, 2008, 16:37:43 PM
quite so many? you mean 3 instead of 4. you are kind ::) ;)
Nah, closer to none. Gilles is lacking in the good ol` Prestige. Suppose I could find out my Voyageuse and give her a whirl. ;)
In my opinion to be allowed to use the best units of the different factions is everything but good for the balance of the game...
No offense but to discover some players used Rossinate, 2 grenaders and 2 hashishins make me sick. I hate this Prestige ability :-[
Two hashashins (says Sean Connery) you say ? Interesting .... ::)
Even more you still have 1 CMD point left to buy another grenader if you think your army is not strong enough ;)
As a side note I would like to decline the game we were supposed to have together ::) ;D
i have issues with mercs and race of origin myself. i used isiah and the golum in my demon army t'other day and felt dirty for it really. jew and satanists working hand in hand strikes me as wrong.
its the same thing for warhammer chaos gods, im hugely opposed to god mixing there too, it spoils the fluff of the army and in a way takes away a fun part of the hobby.
id be a change to play mercs though mark never played against a pure merc list before. a think a mourner might be in my lists to dent giles a little bit with all his lovely orders.
Mercs are Mercs. They like the money. You can always think of it more as the enemy of my enemy is my friend. I would be interested in seeing some religious campatability thing for taking Mercs in other armies though. Something as simple as "Isiah will not work for a Satanic leader" or "Charon will work for anybody".
Sara from the Westerners army is a Satanist but seems to do ok with all those Christians around. I guess the fact she`s bewitched Vargas could help. ;D
Citation de: Dogmeat le Octobre 10, 2008, 11:59:07 AM
Sara from the Westerners army is a Satanist but seems to do ok with all those Christians around. I guess the fact she`s bewitched Vargas could help. ;D
That's a nice example that already sets the precedent. Also, while we can see their religion printed on their cards, I automatically assumed that some characters, especially mercs, wouldn't be wearing their higher allegiance pinned to their lapels! I can really see Gilles commanding a mixed christian/unbeliever/whatever band for 'the greater good', wink wink. Or someone like Isiah or Gotz allying themselves to others for a genuine greater good, and hopefully to convert some of those heathen rabble along the way by demonstrating his power on the battlefield. Or just to go turncoat after the worst were dealt with. It's not necessarily obvious which factions/religions some of these characters might consider to be the greatest threats, ideologically.
I guess it's how you see the flavour of each character.
May seems that the tendancies for part three are :
In part three,
- Saracens
- Mercs
- Westerners
- Daemons
- Losts
Westerners found their way using WMD : big and strong armies using grenadiers aplenty and Sister Eloise, plus a tactic with Georg using their special card to get domination and Georg's order.
Losts begins to pay hard not to have any tricky combos, but we're still a big challenge for our opponent if they make any mistake.
As I explained in the French part, I think there's different levels of expertise :
For me, Losts are a basic army : we win when opponent fails. Simple as that.
WMD? weapons of mass destruction! are all these results with 100% faction specific or do the include mercs on each side ?
daemons are a lot lower than i thought
I would guess that demons tend to have very similiar lists with similiar strategies that people learn to play around. The other armies may pose some more variability into their tactics. More or less a shot-in-the-dark-idea though.
Saracens have a heck of a lot of combo potential so that may explain their good ranking.
well as i stated in this post earlier, we now play lost and westerners, and i must say westerners at the moment are playing really well,
i thought at first the demons may have been to powerful, hence going for lost, (as its me an the missus) but i think after a few games its more on play style and finding weaknesses in the opposing army, must say the pavlova bird seems a hard cookie
Demons are really powerful because they are all around : they can answer to everybody.
Grenades ? We have a lot of hp and health capacities
Contact ? Come on and play with my Big Damneds on my Succubus without Vae Soli/victis thanks to the ambassador.
Combos ? Great, we have someone who crys for you...
But demons are the only army where you can't buy all that you need. You have to make choices.
Moreover, they share another weakness with the Losts, having no troops able to reach protected weaknesses, like hashishins does. Things will change when Shah Ren Ze will come.
Last point : I noticed that demons players are mainly the most attached to the fact of beeing pure. Even in tournaments, only a few of them takes people who are not coordinated with the "style" (like Gotz, Golem or Squamates).
Demons Roxxx :)
CitationI would guess that demons tend to have very similiar lists with similiar strategies that people learn to play around
I don't think so.
Daemons like saracens have a lot of possibilities. Each reference is really different from the others, and all are well balanced, so you will find a lot of "competitive" lists. That's not the case for example with Lost and Westerners.
Citation de: Worm le Octobre 22, 2008, 11:57:06 AM
Last point : I noticed that demons players are mainly the most attached to the fact of beeing pure. Even in tournaments, only a few of them takes people who are not coordinated with the "style" (like Gotz, Golem or Squamates).
Demons Roxxx :)
That's only because they don't need Mercs. As you said, Demons can hardly set all their good references in 200 points (same thing for Saracens by the way ;D).
i havent played the same list twice with my demons and consistantly win 3 out of 4 games with them and havent come below 3rd place (i think) in the small tourneys we have in manchester. i think more than any army demons have the greatest choice and tactical flexibility. westerners rely on dopple/grenadiers and little else, saracens rely almost exclusively on pillars and lancers and the only things lost impressed me with was maggot throwers and bran.
we obviously have ou weakness' but who doesnt i just think our strengths outweigh everyone elses at the moment. id like that to change though so i can at least face a more varied army list when i do play.
saying that though demons do have a MUST HAVE selection of minis, u almost always see a succubus, a grand damned etc.
well ,I play with all the factions and so far the Lost is the one that win more games . Terraformation is the lost best friend .
think ahead when setting terrain and you will probably have a third of the game on your favor . the lost also have lots of trick . and once the last release is available they will be even more deadly ... l