Les Chiens de Guerre

The rules and cards were posted in French here (http://arch01.forum.helldorado.fr/index.php?topic=3179.0).

Here (http://www.duke.edu/~mt29/HellDorado/rules1635.pdf) is a quick (and not so pretty) translation of the rules. The cards (or at least the changes compared to their 1634 versions) will come tomorrow. Well some of them at least.

EDIT:
the Lost (http://www.duke.edu/~mt29/HellDorado/lost1635.pdf)
Demons (http://www.duke.edu/~mt29/HellDorado/demonsEN1635.pdf)
Saracens (http://www.duke.edu/~mt29/HellDorado/saracens1635.pdf)
Westerners (http://www.duke.edu/~mt29/HellDorado/westerners1635.pdf)
Mercs (http://www.duke.edu/~mt29/HellDorado/mercs1635.pdf)
Please don't hesitate to let me know if you spot any mistakes/typos.

Thank you Mathieu.

Was there really that much abuse of Mercenaries to need these rules?  I've never actually used any Mercs along with my Westerners, so I am a little surprised to see this.

Also - is there a CLEAR ruling on how we are to use the 1635 versions?  Do they replace the 1634?  Are they optional?  Can we mix and match old and new in a forcelist?  Etc?

--Robert

CitationDo they replace the 1634?

Yes. And the english cards will be release soon.

Hello, CCCP folks.

So the old cards are No Longer To Be Used?

Just trying to be clear here.

---Robert

CitationSo the old cards are No Longer To Be Used?

Yes

Thank you very much for the clarity.

--Robert

i thought they wernt going to raise the points cost of anything, foulques the black is 2pts more  and spitters gone up 1AP too.

they've cottoned onto asaliah being able to control bran too (immune/controlled  :'( ) i did so love killing stuff with bran, one of the few ways to stop him with any kind of reliability.

Whoa, most of the saracens were boosted...

Should the Grenadiers pistol also have Penetrating strike like the Fencer has? It's not in the French card but I was wondering if this was a mistake or done on purpose? (OK, the pistol is quite useless compared to the grenade but still...).

westerners are getting serious changes to their officiers, baptiste and georg both 5 and 10ap cheaper respectively both with boosted CMD values, this is something they really needed. CMD points are always thin on the ground with westerners, might get some initiative to use mine now.

i like how all the high end offiiciers are now 70pts ish, makes them far more playable. like the changes to the obese damned of gluttony too, really changes how he's played.

bran is MUCH better now and the only high end officier not to be reduced (rightly so) terror/2, CBT 8, reduced warcray cost and CMD 5 make him the unstoppable juggernaut he should be with better Leadership abilities. still hefty points cost but your really getting what you pay for now.

etruscillas new order is nice and will save her bacon more than once i think

overall i like virtually everything thats been changed. nothing game breaking and just the small changes will really change peoples armies as so many minis are now more of a viable choice, the default selection list each faction has wont be as defined anymore. good job

Damned of Wrath also got Premier Choc, which is missing from the English file.

Huge thanks, Mathieu!

Citation de: Lemminkäinen le Janvier 17, 2009, 08:15:57 AMDamned of Wrath also got Premier Choc, which is missing from the English file.

Good catch, thanks.

All the card changes are now up. I'll update them accordingly as small modifications keep coming (Wormpile is supposed to get Intangible, for example).

Thanks again mathieu. Your help with these translations are invaluable.  ;D

Thanks mathieu! It's great to know how things have shaped up already, though I'll now worry more for my poor squishy demons when they finally get an outing!

Though I can't really call the obese glutton "squishy" any more, which feels really weird!

Saracen's Jafar the Efreet's order of getting free charges also changed so that it can only be triggered when (friendly?) Saracen models die. Which is a really good thing :)

Can someone explain the addition to Sha Ren Zhe's order - does it mean that he will fight twice after the teleport? Also, does Charon's order's Stunned state function differently from the usual Stunned state which lasts for X activations as opposed to X turns (X being one in this case)?

mercs got a mixed result. not at all happy with the russian trapper whos single redeaming feature has been nerfed a bit. just baught him too  :P its still useful but not nearly as good and costs more for the order too. 30 coins got a whole lot better which may tempt me to use him. sha ren zhe now gets two attack sequences with scavenger order which may be a good or bad thing. gotz got easier to hit  :'( alazais is now much better which is great cos i like using her. giles gets cheaper by 9AP and has 8 fathon charisma range which cant be bad either.

overall im happy with everything from the races im playing. cant wait for the cards so i can maybe get a game or two in.

Citation de: Bork le Janvier 17, 2009, 20:30:16 PMmercs got a mixed result. not at all happy with the russian trapper whos single redeaming feature has been nerfed a bit.  just baught him too  :P its still useful but not nearly as good and costs more for the order too.

I just bought him, too, but I think that the nerfing was a really, really good thing. Especially adding a range for the effect. I mean, effectively taking the enemy's most powerful miniature out of the game for two rounds because they ran/charged is an extremely powerful ability. Or you can even kill the bugger because of the -2DEF thing. A Deserter is quite horrid against a DEF 2 opponent :) I used Trapper today (though I didn't get a chance to use the order as I messed up my command point usage a bit and there was very little running/charging going on because of the scenario.

Citationgotz got easier to hit  :'(

He indeed was ridiculously durable. 14 LP with PR 3 and DEF 4 made him one of the most durable minis in the game.

Citationalazais is now much better which is great cos i like using her.

This was also extremely needed. She got a huge boost and really needed it.

Citationoverall im happy with everything from the races im playing. cant wait for the cards so i can maybe get a game or two in.

Aye, these were really nice changes. Can't say that I've yet noticed anything that I disagree with :) Great stuff!

Citation de: Lemminkäinen le Janvier 17, 2009, 20:08:48 PMSaracen's Jafar the Efreet's order of getting free charges also changed so that it can only be triggered when (friendly?) Saracen models die.

Good catch, another one I let slip ;). It's fixed now.

Citation de: Lemminkäinen le Janvier 17, 2009, 20:08:48 PMCan someone explain the addition to Sha Ren Zhe's order - does it mean that he will fight twice after the teleport?

He teleports, immediately triggers a melee combat from the order, and then he gets to move (if needed/wanted) and fight a 'regular' melee combat. Well played he shouldn't have a problem getting rid of 2 troopers this way. Moreover, if you have the Domination you activate him last, kill two troopers, likely get the Domination back at the next turn, activate him first and kill two other troopers in the same fashion (as developed by quite a few people in this (http://arch01.forum.helldorado.fr/index.php?topic=3216.msg41054#msg41054) thread). Then he'll probably get a solid retaliation through his teeth, but unless you played him poorly (or were very unlucky), his death would be worth more points than he costs.

[/quote]Also, does Charon's order's Stunned state function differently from the usual Stunned state which lasts for X activations as opposed to X turns (X being one in this case)?
[/quote]It is a particular case indeed and only lasts until the end of the current turn.

One more thing. The new Lemure rules are called Remanent and Evanescent in the rules pdf, but Layla gets Dissipated to one spell and Alazais gets Dissipated to all her spells. So should Dissipated be instead Remanent? Also, how does Remanent actually work in the game? Can the lemure lauch the spell again and again? Or am I just confused (entirely possible)?

Edit: Checking the French documents, it seems that only Layla should have Remanent in any of her spells and those are the first and the third spells (the ones marked as Evanescent in the English pdf). And it also answers my question about how Remanent works.

Citation de: mathieu le Janvier 18, 2009, 00:40:12 AMHe teleports, immediately triggers a melee combat from the order, and then he gets to move (if needed/wanted) and fight a 'regular' melee combat. Well played he shouldn't have a problem getting rid of 2 troopers this way. Moreover, if you have the Domination you activate him last, kill two troopers, likely get the Domination back at the next turn, activate him first and kill two other troopers in the same fashion (as developed by quite a few people in this (http://arch01.forum.helldorado.fr/index.php?topic=3216.msg41054#msg41054) thread). Then he'll probably get a solid retaliation through his teeth, but unless you played him poorly (or were very unlucky), his death would be worth more points than he costs.

Ah, very cool, thank you!

Citation de: Lemminkäinen le Janvier 19, 2009, 13:47:39 PMOne more thing. The new Lemure rules are called Remanent and Evanescent in the rules pdf, but Layla gets Dissipated to one spell and Alazais gets Dissipated to all her spells. So should Dissipated be instead Remanent? Also, how does Remanent actually work in the game? Can the lemure lauch the spell again and again? Or am I just confused (entirely possible)?

What a doofus I am...

Alright so Remanent (same word as in french) is for when the lemure doesn't disappear when the spell takes effect, Evanescent ("dissipé" in french) is for when it does. I fixed the entries for the Saracen, Westerner, and Merc infernalists (for some reason the Demon were fine). Thanks for catching that one, that was a very bad and confusing mistake indeed.

As for the way it works all the Remanent spells are of the "as long as the Lemure is in play" type. So there's is no 'launching' the spell per se, it more as if the lemure were emitting its own little aura as soon as it is summoned and until it's killed.

On  the translation I provided to Geof I used "vanished" and "residual"

Are remanent &  evanescent better ? If yes will update my document and will send it back to Asmodee

Residual and remanent are pretty much the same. Remanent belongs more to the technical vocabulary, I chose it because I think it's a little bit easier (as in "less confusing") to use the same word as in French when they happen to be exact translations of one another.

I used evanescent because I like the sound of it and it reminded me of a Physics class with evanescent waves and remanent fields, so both terms are somewhat linked in my memory ;). I don't think there really is a "better" translation, it's possibly is only a matter of taste. However I think any translation from a non-native English speaker should be heavily re-handled by at least one native English speaker anyway. No matter how hard we try it'll never sound as good as it could :)

Lets go for remanent then...

And for residual I will wait the opinion from a english native  ;)

To be honest, I'm not sure Remanent is a good choice - while the word appears to mean "lingering", I can only find references to it online regarding magnetism. Same goes for Evanescent - apart from the band, it's usually only referred to in electromagnetics.

If you want a less-"common" feel to the game, fair enough, but my opinion would be, save the more complex vocabulary for names and background text, not rules definitions.

Citation de: AndrewGPaul le Janvier 19, 2009, 18:16:23 PM
To be honest, I'm not sure Remanent is a good choice - while the word appears to mean "lingering", I can only find references to it online regarding magnetism. Same goes for Evanescent - apart from the band, it's usually only referred to in electromagnetics.

If you want a less-"common" feel to the game, fair enough, but my opinion would be, save the more complex vocabulary for names and background text, not rules definitions.

So what would be the "best" for you ?

Citation de: AndrewGPaul le Janvier 19, 2009, 18:16:23 PM
To be honest, I'm not sure Remanent is a good choice - while the word appears to mean "lingering", I can only find references to it online regarding magnetism. Same goes for Evanescent - apart from the band, it's usually only referred to in electromagnetics.

Like I said, I know remanent belongs more to the technical world, but so does it in French and that is the word they picked for the rule. And if evanescent has a similar technical feel, it is (or was) a poetic term first and foremost. Just for the record ;)

Now I for one do not want a particularly uncommon feel for the game, I'd just like whatever pops up in French to be available to non-French speakers as fast as possible (hence the rather crude translations at time, the occasional mistakes, and so on). But I honestly think that your opinion (or generally speaking the opinion of native English speakers) matters much more than mine (or any French translator) ever will as far as translating to English is concerned, so please do feel free to suggest terms you think are more appropriate. I'll be happy to fix these temporary files so they're easier to understand until the official cards are available.

Citation de: mathieu le Janvier 19, 2009, 20:11:38 PM
And if evanescent has a similar technical feel, it is (or was) a poetic term first and foremost. Just for the record ;)

Fair enough; my education was in science, not literature. :)

As for alternate terms, hah, it's easier to criticise than to help. Hmmm ...

possibly expendable and lingering? Or has lingering already been used? I'd actually lean towards something like destroy and remain in play.

Needs more work, I think.

Citation de: AndrewGPaul le Janvier 19, 2009, 21:57:14 PMOr has lingering already been used?

For the auras, indeed.

Are you looking to describe the lemures or the spells themselves?

If it is the spells only, I would be tempted to use "Perpetual" or "Constant" for the spells that are in effect as long as the lemure is in play. It assumes that the player knows the spell goes away when the lemure is killed, but that it obvious from the rules we already have. Residual isn't inaccurate, but it does leave me with the impression of something continuing on after a more important event. As an OTT example: The residual effect of an atomic bomb would be the fallout and lingering radiation. Or you might harbor a residual grudge after fight. That seems too weak to describe what is supposed to be the main result of a spell casting.

I'd also maybe use "Instant", or better yet: "Triggered", for spells that only when the lemure destroys itself to release the spell, since some one shot spells leave lingering effects/terrain and the like.

However, if you are describing the lemure and the spell as a single combined entity, then using something more interesting like "Supporting" or "Supportive", and "Suicidal" or "Destructive" might be fun, as long as they are explained properly in the rules! That might still be too confusing though, since any spell can be put in any lemure.

One thing to keep in mind is that as the game evolves new abilities/keywords are likely to be introduced. So it's important to make sure that terms chosen today are not too likely to interfere with future translations. For example I don't think it's unrealistic to imagine a model that would have some "suicidaire" special ability (French for suicidal), and it'll be trickier to find a translation if "suicidal" is already used today. I believe Rackham ran into similar problems when they decided to translate the french "brute épaisse" into "brutal", and with C3 introduced the french "brutal" in the game (which became ruthless).

All of this to say that even if it doesn't matter much as far as the current rule is concerned, it's just easier in the long term if the English terms don't depart too much from the meaning of the original word. In my opinion that is ;)

Citation de: mathieu le Janvier 20, 2009, 18:35:31 PM
One thing to keep in mind is that as the game evolves new abilities/keywords are likely to be introduced. So it's important to make sure that terms chosen today are not too likely to interfere with future translations.

Haha, very true. I hadn't thought of that. But then, my latter examples were more for the sake of thematic amusement than rules clarity to begin with.

I would still go with some variation of "continuous" rather than "residual" though, just so there is less room for odd interpretations. I just chose "Perpetual" because it sounds nicer (and a bit more thematic) to me. But "Residual" works okay, especially since it is a close translation, I guess. Or if you want something closer to "Remnant" you could use a word as simple as "Remaining" for absolute clarity. Unless someone would then expect the spell to 'remain' after the lemure dies, but that would be stretching the boundaries of interpretation a little!

As for "dissipé", that's trickier, since "Dissipating" in English implies a slow disappearance rather than the instant removal of something. Again, the most simple would just be "Disappearing", but that's specific to the lemure and not the spell. Then again, isn't that what the French also refers to? (My French is all but non-existant by the way, so I'm also not the best person to be answering I guess!) If you wanted something more thematic, I'd be looking at more variations on comparing the lemure/spell to a bullet since that is easy to understand, hence something like "Triggered". You trigger the spell whichever way it requires, and it goes off right then and there, and not before. But then you're getting away from the original French, as you mentioned.

Maybe simple is best, so Remaining and Disappearing? And for more flavour it isn't a big step from them to Residual and Vanishing, which is what Darth-Swen originally proposed! (Though as a side note Vanishing sounds a lot more natural as a rules keyword than Vanished)

My reason for preferring something else over "Remnant" would be that most native English speakers will immediately understand something like Residual or Continuous, while they might have to assume that Remnant means "remaining" in the rules. They would be right, but they wouldn't have to flip through the rulebook to double check! In colloquial usage the English word Remnant means "The little or few that remains" or "The surviving trace", so that would not be an intuitive description of what the lemure or spell is. Unless that's identical to the French, in which case use it since it's supposed to be unintuitive for the sake of flavour.

For some reason I kept thinking of Remnants as some sort of undead minions for some reason while writing most of that! And that was a lot more than I intended to write, so sorry for muddying the water with excess wordage.  :-[

That's one reason I suggested "remains in play" and "destroys" - it's fairly straightforward as to what the effect is.

Can you explain what the "initial total of Command Points" is? Is this just for calculating Domination at the beginning of the game, or what? If I have a Saracen army of 200 points, with 70 points of Mercenaries and the  Saracen Officer and Independents add 6 Command, and a Mercenary adds 2 CMD, these rules seem to imply that I don't count the Mercenary's 2 CMD, and reduce the Saracen total by 1, for a total of 6 CMD. Does this apply throughout the game? Seems a little harsh.

Citation3.4. Mixing rules
- If every single model in a company belong to the same faction as the company Officer, the
initial total of Command points is increased by 1. In addition, the Officer is able to be activated
in reaction as if he benefited from the Accelerated state (but without the +2 MOV bonus).
- If the total cost of models belonging to another faction than the faction of the company's
Officer is equal to or less than 35AP, nothing happens.
- If the total cost of models belonging to another faction than the faction of the company's
Officer is between 36AP and 50AP, these models are not included in the initial total of
Command points (they are considered to have CMD 0 for this purpose).
- If the total cost of models belonging to another faction than the faction of the company's
Officer is more than 50AP, these models are not included in the initial total of Command points
(they are considered to have CMD 0 for this purpose). In addition, for each model not belong
to the faction of the Officer, the player removes 1 to the initial total of Command points.

Citation de: AndrewGPaul le Janvier 21, 2009, 01:01:28 AM
Can you explain what the "initial total of Command Points" is? Is this just for calculating Domination at the beginning of the game, or what? If I have a Saracen army of 200 points, with 70 points of Mercenaries and the  Saracen Officer and Independents add 6 Command, and a Mercenary adds 2 CMD, these rules seem to imply that I don't count the Mercenary's 2 CMD, and reduce the Saracen total by 1, for a total of 6 CMD. Does this apply throughout the game? Seems a little harsh.

The initial total of Command points is the number of CMD points you start the game with. (Called " basic Command score" into the english rules - page 25 of the pdf document)

In your exemple you will start the game with only 5 CMD points (6-1 from the saracen units and none from the mercenaries)

From my point of view it is a good way to discourage the metagaming so popular in tournaments... It also helps to give a real iddentity to the factions...

So that reduced Command score applies to my Total Command Points for the entire game? Just as well I didn't buy many mercenaries, I suppose. :)

Citation de: AndrewGPaul le Janvier 21, 2009, 12:43:59 PM
So that reduced Command score applies to my Total Command Points for the entire game?

Yes indeed

Do these mixed totals rules apply to Mercenary groups using Prestige to bring in other factions to a Merc Company?
Lots of reasons to run a "pure" company now, but seems a bit against the Mercs philosophy of taking from others.....

One other thing; there's a bit of confusion, at least in my mind, as to what 1634 vs 1635 means.

For the Voyager, the difference between the 1634 and 1635 editions is that the character has matured, in-story (through the events of the Chronicles of Zaebas campaign?), and has gone from a lone fighter to a leader of men. The 1635 stats don't mean that retroactively she's always been an Officer.

However, looking at these rules amendments, it seems like these are errata, not changes due to story progression. the "1635" changes look to be intended to be applied retroactively - Prince Tarik has always had the Elusive ability, and has always been immune to his eagle's Aura of Distraction - it's not something he's recently learned.

Is this the case? Am I babbling nonsense again?

I'm thinking in the case of the Chronicles of Zaebas campaign, for instance. It seems like it should be appropriatye to play through that using the 1634 Voyager, until such point as she 'matures' into the 1635 version. However,it looks like I should use 1635 versions of the other troop types all the time. Correct? No?

The first version of the voyager  was an independent  not an officer . and Tarik was indeed  affected by the aura of distraction. ..
making the voyager an officer  was  ,I think, a necesity  as she was quite powerfull as an independent . Tarik on the other hand   has now another trick  when  fighting  officer and  strong independents .  and also make you worry less to were to place the bloody  eagle to get the benefit ....

A couple of things missed:

Sha Ren Zhe lost Penetrating Strike 2

Charon's orders changed into Passive and Active (this is rather huge)

At this point, the problem I have is that some of the things I missed are actually things that got modified again in the final cards. And we won't get a set of nifty 'temporary' 1635 cards until the actual official ones are available for download.

I fixed the mistakes for the sake of sticking to the information currently available, but be aware that some of these changes will change again fairly shortly.

Citation de: mathieu le Février 02, 2009, 05:31:27 AM
At this point, the problem I have is that some of the things I missed are actually things that got modified again in the final cards. And we won't get a set of nifty 'temporary' 1635 cards until the actual official ones are available for download.

I fixed the mistakes for the sake of sticking to the information currently available, but be aware that some of these changes will change again fairly shortly.

Ah, okay. Thank you for the heads up! :)

I will be very disappointed if Charon's orders turn into exhaustive ones again.

Citation de: Lemminkäinen le Février 02, 2009, 08:40:01 AM
I will be very disappointed if Charon's orders turn into exhaustive ones again

You won't... This order will remain Active  ::)

So...for those of us lazy and such, when are we getting actual finished and pretty English PDFs for the 1635 changes?

--Robert

Some guys are proofreading the translation I producted with Mathieu great support.

When it will be finalised Asmodee should use it to manufacture proper solid cards.

Will keep you in touch for details.

Thank you very much.

We just had a teaching-game on Saturday but had a heck of a time trying to keep one eye on the cards/army builder print out and one eye on the 1635 changes document.  If we had more eyes that might not be a problem, but having only two made it a challenge.

--Robert

Citation de: Darth-Swen le Février 02, 2009, 19:51:12 PM
Some guys are proofreading the translation I producted with Mathieu great support.

When it will be finalised Asmodee should use it to manufacture proper solid cards.

What? Will this mean that we will finally get actual cards... with the 1635 "evolutions" ALREADY included?

Citation de: Silveri le Février 03, 2009, 13:55:17 PM
What? Will this mean that we will finally get actual cards... with the 1635 "evolutions" ALREADY included?

This is exactly what I meant.

There are still some last minute modifications to be applied on the current translation (remember french profils are not frozen yet) but  most of the 1635 cards are ready to go to the Asmodee graphics department.

yes!! at long last. sick of playing with printouts. woot!! good news